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Finally I can sell my stillpoints!

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Thomas savage

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Even if I did share the measurements from the DAC output, if they were superior, the next things would be "It's beyond the threshold of audibility". It's become vividly clear that on this forum, any product that doesn't come from the Harman international corporation you represent, will never be good enough. It's a waste of time and energy to try to prove anything. Because there will always be an excuse. This forum is only a stealth form of advertising for Harman International.
Mike, I think your onto something here.. before I started out at ASR I had no Harman products whatsoever, now I have 2 JBL extremes and ordered a pair of 705p's .

Damn amir, he suckered me:mad:

I hate guys who pretend to contribute to forums in good faith but are secretly branding and promoting themselves and their products through viral marketing practices , don't you just hate that mike?!
 
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Mivera

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Mike, I think your onto something here.. before I started out at ASR I had no Harman products whatsoever, now I have 2 JBL extremes and ordered a pair of 705p's .

Damn amir, he suckered me:mad:

I bet if Amir shared his investment portfolio with the forum, it would be very clear why the bias is so strong. Also he does run a dealership that exclusively sells the products he promotes, and has investment stakes in. Harman, Berkeley, Pacific Microsonics etc. I heard a rumor he's even partners with The Computer Audiophile admin on the PM investment. The real reasons for everything in this world are always political and financial. Why else would you waste your time running a forum? I certainly wouldn't if there wasn't any financial gain in it for me.
 
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Mivera

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I hate guys who pretend to contribute to forums in good faith but are secretly branding and promoting themselves and their products through viral marketing practices , don't you just hate that mike?!

No doubt. You need to make it clear in your monkier and also great to have a link to your website in your signature. This way everyone knows if your a member of the industry, and there's a chance you may have a bias towards the brands you represent. It's likely common that folks who have investments in certain brands and line their pockets from the sales, have an interest in their success.
 

Thomas savage

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I bet if Amir shared his investment portfolio with the forum, it would be very clear why the bias is so strong. Also he does run a dealership that exclusively sells the products he promotes, and has investment stakes in. Harman, Berkeley, Pacific Microsonics etc. I heard a rumor he's even partners with The Computer Audiophile admin on the PM investment. The real reasons for everything in this world are always political and financial. Why else would you waste your time running a forum? I certainly wouldn't if there wasn't any financial gain in it for me.
Yes I can understand exactly why you would feel that way.
 

amirm

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Even if I did share the measurements from the DAC output, if they were superior, the next things would be "It's beyond the threshold of audibility".
That would be good data to have otherwise. As it is, you keep putting other people's component measurements forward which is of no value with respect to sound produced by a device.
 

amirm

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I bet if Amir shared his investment portfolio with the forum, it would be very clear why the bias is so strong. Also he does run a dealership that exclusively sells the products he promotes, and has investment stakes in. Harman, Berkeley, Pacific Microsonics etc. I heard a rumor he's even partners with The Computer Audiophile admin on the PM investment. The real reasons for everything in this world are always political and financial. Why else would you waste your time running a forum? I certainly wouldn't if there wasn't any financial gain in it for me.
You are certainly demonstrating that philosophy by directly promoting a product you are selling. We allow that to some extent but ask for scientific and engineering backing on why you say it is good. You are missing that completely. You have not post any measurements, accepted research, controlled listening tests, etc. that shows any truth to your statements.

For my part, I do show all of that. And then folks can decide how much personal bias has entered my posts.
 
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Mivera

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You are certainly demonstrating that philosophy by directly promoting a product you are selling. We allow that to some extent but ask for scientific and engineering backing on why you say it is good. You are missing that completely. You have not post any measurements, accepted research, controlled listening tests, etc. that shows any truth to your statements.

For my part, I do show all of that. And then folks can decide how much personal bias has entered my posts.

All you are doing is pushing the marketing strategy the companies you represent use. The only truth to their measurement techniques is, it's what they use as a marketing strategy. That marketing strategy has no bearing on whether or not the end user will like the product better or not. It's just the angle they chose to play. The angle I play is I decide with my in house testing what matters. And I let the end users decide if they like the product or not. I have no interest in a numbers pissing contest because no other manufacturer shares the important measurements as a reference point of comparison anyways. So really it's just a waste of effort, and will only serve to confuse people.
 

Blumlein 88

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I bet if Amir shared his investment portfolio with the forum, it would be very clear why the bias is so strong. Also he does run a dealership that exclusively sells the products he promotes, and has investment stakes in. Harman, Berkeley, Pacific Microsonics etc. I heard a rumor he's even partners with The Computer Audiophile admin on the PM investment. The real reasons for everything in this world are always political and financial. Why else would you waste your time running a forum? I certainly wouldn't if there wasn't any financial gain in it for me.

So let me get this straight. The forum has small participation because Amir's views aren't the same as other forums, and it's so lucrative because he's is slyly using it to push products that benefit him financially. I bet your logic on evaluation of DAC outputs is equally clear.
 
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Mivera

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So let me get this straight. The forum has small participation because Amir's views aren't the same as other forums, and it's so lucrative because he's is slyly using it to push products that benefit him financially. I bet your logic on evaluation of DAC outputs is equally clear.


I never claimed his strategy was successful :)
 

Thomas savage

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So let me get this straight. The forum has small participation because Amir's views aren't the same as other forums, and it's so lucrative because he's is slyly using it to push products that benefit him financially. I bet your logic on evaluation of DAC outputs is equally clear.
Amir must be doing quite well to afford the salary I'm on..
 
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Mivera

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What blows my mind is with Harman's top line ,Mark Levinson, they share very little in the way of industry standard measurement data. And what they do share is sub-par at best. For example look at their $15000 integrated amp:

AMPLIFIER SECTION

Output Power: 200W RMS per channel @ 8 Ω, 20Hz – 20kHz

Damping Factor: >400 @ 20Hz, referred to 8 Ω

Frequency Response: 20Hz – 20kHz, ±0.13dB; 2Hz – 250kHz, +0.2dB/–3dB

Signal-to-Noise Ratio: >98dB (20Hz – 20kHz, unweighted); >103dB (20Hz – 20kHz, A-wtd), referred to full output – maximum volume setting

Voltage Gain: 40.7dB (maximum volume setting)

Total Harmonic Distortion: <0.01% @ 1kHz, 200W, 8 Ω; <0.1% @ 20kHz, 200W, 8 Ω

PREAMPLIFIER SECTION: ANALOG

Input Impedance: >45k Ω (RCA & XLR)

Input Overload: >5.5V RMS (RCA & XLR)

PREAMPLIFIER SECTION: DIGITAL

Sample Rates/Bit Depth: PCM: 32kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz, 192kHz/up to 32-bit; DSD: Native, single- and double-speed

http://www.marklevinson.com/productdetail/~/product/no585.html

Wow that sure tells me a whole lot! Why should I buy this again? Something from Aliexpress for $500 can match those specs.
 

Thomas savage

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What blows my mind is with Harman's top line ,Mark Levinson, they share very little in the way of industry standard measurement data. And what they do share is sub-par at best. For example look at their $15000 integrated amp:

AMPLIFIER SECTION

Output Power: 200W RMS per channel @ 8 Ω, 20Hz – 20kHz

Damping Factor: >400 @ 20Hz, referred to 8 Ω

Frequency Response: 20Hz – 20kHz, ±0.13dB; 2Hz – 250kHz, +0.2dB/–3dB

Signal-to-Noise Ratio: >98dB (20Hz – 20kHz, unweighted); >103dB (20Hz – 20kHz, A-wtd), referred to full output – maximum volume setting

Voltage Gain: 40.7dB (maximum volume setting)

Total Harmonic Distortion: <0.01% @ 1kHz, 200W, 8 Ω; <0.1% @ 20kHz, 200W, 8 Ω

PREAMPLIFIER SECTION: ANALOG

Input Impedance: >45k Ω (RCA & XLR)

Input Overload: >5.5V RMS (RCA & XLR)

PREAMPLIFIER SECTION: DIGITAL

Sample Rates/Bit Depth: PCM: 32kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz, 192kHz/up to 32-bit; DSD: Native, single- and double-speed

http://www.marklevinson.com/productdetail/~/product/no585.html

Wow that sure tells me a whole lot! Why should I buy this again? Something from Aliexpress for $500 can match those specs.
Damn, amir gave me one of those as a Christmas bonus last year, you saying it's crap mike? ... might ebay it then..
 

DonH56

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Shouldn't this be in Fight Club? Now we're comparing amplifiers? Much of the high-end gear I've owned over the years (ML, Krell, ARC, etc.) was poorly or minimally spec'd. At some point I suppose it just doesn't matter since the specs are typically far better than what we could notice as distortion anyway. And some of the gear I measured was grossly under-spec'd, almost like they took pride in publishing specs like THD of <1 % even when it was 0.001 % at typical levels.

As for whether folk can hear 1 ps of RJ on an audio DAC clock, I'm from Missouri, show me the DBT results. The aperture time of a 24-bit DAC at 20 kHz is about 0.5 ps so you're around the 1/2-lsb level of a 24-bit converter at 20 kHz. That is, 1 ps lops off about a bit, leaving you with a measly 140 dB or so of SNR. It scales linearly with frequency so at 2 kHz you'd need 5 ps for the same level of noise, 10 ps at 1 kHz, etc. Every time I've piddled with this in simulation or the lab, any audible difference has been traced to other things and not jitter, leastwise not jitter at this level. And that was with test tones; the JND threshold is much higher with a real-world source like music.
 
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Mivera

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Damn, amir gave me one of those as a Christmas bonus last year, you saying it's crap mike? ... might ebay it then..


No I'm not saying it's crap, but if you are a subscriber to Amir's bible it's certainly crap. Problem is he's not even properly representing his brands. The engineers at Harman know full well that there's far more to making great sounding products than an outdated APx machine can tell us.
 
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Mivera

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What are the specs on the outdated APx?



If Amir's APx can't tell me why I should spend $15000 on that Mark Levinson integrated amp, to me either the machine is outdated, or that amplifier is crap.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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If Amir's APx can't tell me why I should spend $15000 on that Mark Levinson integrated amp, to me either the machine is outdated, or that amplifier is crap.
Mike, nice try to totally shift the argument away from you and your DAC and your lack of any meaningful measurements or listening tests of any kind. I guess you think we are all so dazzled by your charm and "brilliant" designs, or at least you think we all stupid enough not to see through your hype and BS.

But, as if we had not already realized it from your prior episodes here, your pathetic attempts are not playing well or making anyone here salivate for your approach or your product. You are only digging a deeper hole here in this forum, but for some reason you would rather waste your time spinning and arguing. It's a lost cause, Mike. No sales here.
 
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Mivera

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Mike, nice try to totally shift the argument away from you and your DAC and your lack of any meaningful measurements or listening tests of any kind. I guess you think we are all so dazzled by your charm and "brilliant" designs, or at least you think we all stupid enough not to see through your hype and BS.

But, as if we had not already realized it from your prior episodes here, your pathetic attempts are not playing well or making anyone here salivate for your approach or your product. You are only digging a deeper hole here in this forum, but for some reason you would rather waste your time spinning and arguing. It's a lost cause, Mike. No sales here.


Who are you kidding? The website hits from this forum have been pouring in like wildfire. Can you say Caaaaa chinggggg?!!
 
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Mivera

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I think I've made enough sales from this thread to pay a few Porsche payments already. I think it's time to go buy a case of beer and some fine whiskey. I'll have a toast to ASR for a job well done :) If you guys are lucky, I may even post a pic to the beer thread after I'm drunk.
 

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Mike aka Mivera

What don't you focus your marketing strategy on posting to Computer Audiophile and similar? People in this ASF forum do not seem to succumb to your charm, nor can they wrap their brain around the fact that 1 ps of jitter is clearly audible... Tough, stupid, ignorant crowd they are ...you know.
 
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