Dutch & Dutch 8C Kii THREE killer?

[watchnerd]

They do look good there designer has heard the Kii's next to the 8C's and prefer the 8C's but he would wouldn't he!
Kii THREE and Dutch& Dutch together!
Notice the expensive high quality stands that the 8C are on!

Keith

These suckers weigh 32kg!

 

[watchnerd]

Cheaper than the Kii's around £8k per pair inc vat and 1000w of raw power!
Keith

Do you know which particular Class D chips they're using?

 

[Cosmik]

... 1000w of raw power!

Of course one of the reasons why you might need all that power is that if you want to get deep bass out of a tiny sealed box, it is highly inefficient. There's an article on the raw nuts and bolts of it here:
http://sound.whsites.net/project48.htm

If we are to operate the sub from 60Hz (my goal from the beginning), we will increase the power by 12dB for each octave, so if 20W is needed at 60Hz, then at 30Hz this has increased to 320W, and at 15Hz, you will need over 5kW...
...Given the performance, I would never consider a conventional sub again

This is why the Devialet Phantom. Kiis, Beolabs etc. need incredible amounts of power but don't go all that loud. I think they also need to protect themselves if driven too hard/too long which, being DSP-based, they can do "subtly" by reducing the bass.

 

[watchnerd]

This is why the Devialet Phantom. Kiis, Beolabs etc. need incredible amounts of power but don't go all that loud. I think they also need to protect themselves if driven too hard/too long which, being DSP-based, they can do "subtly" by reducing the bass.

The Dynaudio LYD series of monitors actually implements a little bit of Fletcher Munsen correction via DSP to make the speakers sound "the same" at high and low volume.

What I like about the 'little speaker with very poor efficiency, high power, and good bass extension at moderate SPLs' is that it solves the majority of the use cases in home audio, for most normal people.

Even with DSP and active monitors, physics is physics, and for high SPLs + deep bass, clever little boxes only take you so far. BUT paying the price, both in money and space, that big boxes require is a high price to pay for functionality that most people don't use 90-95% of the time.

I think it's a sensible compromise that will suit most people better than a giant pair of Klipschorns or similar.

 

[Cosmik]

The Dynaudio LYD series of monitors actually implements a little bit of Fletcher Munsen correction via DSP to make the speakers sound "the same" at high and low volume.

What I like about the 'little speaker with very poor efficiency, high power, and good bass extension at moderate SPLs' is that it solves the majority of the use cases in home audio, for most normal people.

Even with DSP and active monitors, physics is physics, and for high SPLs + deep bass, clever little boxes only take you so far. BUT paying the price, both in money and space, that big boxes require is a high price to pay for functionality that most people don't use 90-95% of the time.

I think it's a sensible compromise that will suit most people better than a giant pair of Klipschorns or similar.

Yes I agree.

 

[oivavoi]

These look very intriguing!
Agreed: this is the future right here.

But concerning bass: isn't there an argument to be made for bigger bass drivers, even though you can push small drivers to go low with eq and enormous amounts of power? I've always found bigger bass drivers to sound better and more natural in their presentation than smaller drivers. My Sonos play 5 that I have in the kitchen goes deep, but the bass still doesn't sound natural.
(not to mention intermodulation/doppler distortion)

 

[watchnerd]

These look very intriguing!
Agreed: this is the future right here.

But concerning bass: isn't there an argument to be made for bigger bass drivers, even though you can push small drivers to go low with eq and enormous amounts of power? I've always found bigger bass drivers to sound better and more natural in their presentation than smaller drivers. My Sonos play 5 that I have in the kitchen goes deep, but the bass still doesn't sound natural.
(not to mention intermodulation/doppler distortion)

Yes, of course. If you don't care about size, bigger is better for bass.

But I think part of the USP for Kii, Dutch & Dutch, etc, is to offer more bass from a smallish box than has been possible before.

 

[oivavoi]

Yes, of course. If you don't care about size, bigger is better for bass.

But I think part of the USP for Kii, Dutch & Dutch, etc, is to offer more bass from a smallish box than has been possible before.

Agreed. But it really isn't that difficult to properly integrate two extra subwoofers by using DSP these days, which can be found in living room friendly designs. But this requires some hassle and know-how, of course. What really impresses me about this speaker though is the directivity control. Would love to see measurements of distortion as well, but few manufacturers show those.

 

[watchnerd]

But it really isn't that difficult to properly integrate two extra subwoofers by using DSP these days, which can be found in living room friendly designs. But this requires some hassle and know-how, of course.

I think integrating multiple subwoofers for music (as opposed to movies) is harder to do seamlessly than most home users want to, or have the skills and inclination, to deal with.

 

[oivavoi]

I think integrating multiple subwoofers for music (as opposed to movies) is harder to do seamlessly than most home users want to, or have the skills and inclination, to deal with.

Yes, it needs some skill. One challenge for example is to find subwoofers that are reasonably similar in tonal character to the bass drivers of the main speakers, and also have low levels of distortion. I would still say that DSP/eq/room correction is a must if one wants to integrate subwoofers properly. I'm not sold on room correction above the transition frequency, but for integrating subwoofers it's a godsend.

 

[Thomas savage]

I think integrating multiple subwoofers for music (as opposed to movies) is harder to do seamlessly than most home users want to, or have the skills and inclination, to deal with.

Whats the barrier that's preventing a pair of active speakers being paired and synced ( setup right) with multiple wireless subs.. Place 4 subs in best positions possible along with your two speakers , place a mic where you sit ( or multiple mics for best advarage performance if more than one listener) and press automatic setup button .. Various test tones sound and the relevant adjustments made..

 

[fas42]

Yes, it needs some skill. One challenge for example is to find subwoofers that are reasonably similar in tonal character to the bass drivers of the main speakers, and also have low levels of distortion. I would still say that DSP/eq/room correction is a must if one wants to integrate subwoofers properly. I'm not sold on room correction above the transition frequency, but for integrating subwoofers it's a godsend.

The interesting thing is that subwoofers done well are very non-obvious - which is how it should be. A chap up the road has such a setup - a frequency sweep demonstrated very clean, and fully present tones; they were just there, to the depths, with no fuss. Probably would be very boring for many audiophiles - because the result wasn't spectacular! On some tracks you could feel the meat being added, but that didn't compensate for issues elsewhere ...

 

[watchnerd]

Whats the barrier that's preventing a pair of active speakers being paired and synced ( setup right) with multiple wireless subs.. Place 4 subs in best positions possible along with your two speakers , place a mic where you sit ( or multiple mics for best advarage performance if more than one listener) and press automatic setup button .. Various test tones sound and the relevant adjustments made..

In theory, nothing. But I don't know of anything that works this way that is currently being sold.

 

[watchnerd]

The interesting thing is that subwoofers done well are very non-obvious - which is how it should be. A chap up the road has such a setup - a frequency sweep demonstrated very clean, and fully present tones; they were just there, to the depths, with no fuss. Probably would be very boring for many audiophiles - because the result wasn't spectacular! On some tracks you could feel the meat being added, but that didn't compensate for issues elsewhere ...

No, this is 100% wrong.

Properly set up subwoofers should make you feel like you're about to have a bowel movement and wonder if you are on Molly.

 

[fas42]

No, this is 100% wrong.

Properly set up subwoofers should make you feel like you're about to have a bowel movement and wonder if you are on Molly.

Of course, the material has to be in the track for that to happen - in real life, moving around on the streets, listening to live acoustic music happening ... I don't get this!! On a track with synthesized stuff, I could imagine it - but that's for the effect - basspig's layout would be the one to get the full monty, when he plays Korean pop ...

 

[Sal1950]

Whats the barrier that's preventing a pair of active speakers being paired and synced ( setup right) with multiple wireless subs.. Place 4 subs in best positions possible along with your two speakers , place a mic where you sit ( or multiple mics for best advarage performance if more than one listener) and press automatic setup button .. Various test tones sound and the relevant adjustments made..

In theory, nothing. But I don't know of anything that works this way that is currently being sold.

Maybe not quite as sophisticated as what Thomas describes but the latest AVR/PrePro with something like DiracLive is getting damn close.

 

[watchnerd]

Maybe not quite as sophisticated as what Thomas describes but the latest AVR/PrePro with something like DiracLive is getting damn close.

I've used Dirac and still find it pretty tweaky.

You still have to do a lot of measurements and 'hand adjustments'.

What Thomas seemed to be envisioning would be 'automagic' and idiot proof.

Not impossible by any means, but if it was me I'd start again from first principles and use the room measuring / person measuring techniques that VR/AR setups are using to map the room + person.

 

[RussellD]

There is a puzzling discrepancy between the specifications listed on page 14 of the owners manual
https://dutchdutch.com/assets/images/8c-manual-english.pdf
regarding power amplifier output. The HF driver's amp is listed as 100W, the enclosure is described as bass reflex which I would not have thought best describes a passive cardioid vented box—maybe cardioid resistive port? Neither the bass dirvers nor the 500W amp driving them is mentioned. At this point I wondered if I was looking at the specs of an earlier model, but apparently not.

 

[Purité Audio]

The 8Cs on new custom stands, the acoustic centre of the speaker is mid way between tweeter and mid, 20cm from the rear wall ,sounding superb!
Keith

 

[Purité Audio]

IMG_0952 by keith Cooper, on Flickr

20cm away from rear wall 70cm either side of free space, measurements and subjectively they sound superb.
Keith