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A Visit to Mike Lavigne's Home and Sound Galleries Media Server

watchnerd

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All true, but can we honestly doubt that playing master tapes made in 1965 over some modern DSP speakers will sound better than the engineer heard at the time?

You could say it's only different, and that the version the engineer heard was the true sound - what he "intended". I don't believe it: he heard a version of his efforts that was limited by his playback gear. When we play it with more modern gear we 're-master' it, usually for the better (but sometimes we reveal too much, maybe).

I've experienced this:

The old master tapes sound horrible over modern speakers. The tape noise is so high it can't be disregarded, the whole top octave is just a mess of drop outs or hashy spikes, there is sub-bass rumbling going on, and at times you get a ringing from a microphonic tube acting up.
 

Jinjuku

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All true, but can we honestly doubt that playing master tapes made in 1965 over some modern DSP speakers will sound better than the engineer heard at the time?

I didn't realize that's being debated here. You can remaster from tape all you want. It's still tape.
 

tomelex

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I don't agree that the sound the engineer heard was the one that was intended. The engineer only has the materials he is given, played back on equipment that is just as flawed as everyone else's. He, too, has biases and preconceptions like audiophiles. He can tweak this or that within limits, but at the end of the day he is just committing the outputs of several microphones to 'tape' based on a few rules of thumb. Luckily, microphones are pretty neutral and humans are pretty good at accepting every mix as 'valid'. Even if he couldn't hear the mix but adjusted the levels by viewing the VU meters, it would probably sound like music.

The audiophile with a better system in a real room may well hear a better version than the engineer - perhaps even closer to the one the engineer had in his head. Simply put, if I record something with my phone, it will sound better when I play it back over a good audio system than when I 'engineered' the recording as I "intended" by listening to it played back over the phone speaker.


Yes, what he heard is what he intended and is what you got.

Well, let me tell you from actual experience how things are done. My son owned a recording studio for a little over two years. Here is what they did. They mic'ed instruments and vocalists, and played the mic feeds to their own tracks on digital tape. Then they played back each track and adjusted the hell out of it to make it sound the way the wanted, to make it sound more realistic over speakers. Then they mixed them together to form the song, then, after that, they did the mastering to make it sound better as a cohesive unit, again using a lot of technology, to tweak again so it sounded how they liked it on their system. That then became the master file. They figure they know better than you do, so you get their best guess at what they figured the song should sound like.

No, you will never hear what he heard or intended unless you are sitting in his seat. And no, the gear is not cheap, its pro gear, speakers and headphones designed to reveal a accurately as possible what is being presented to them, but yes, when you play back what he intended on your system, it may or may not sound better than it did in the studio, it will not be the same though, and that is one of the points I was making, an accurate system will do as little change to the signal other than increasing its power, therefore revealing the Differences between recordings, while anything less than accurate will paint things with its own brush, none will however be what he heard, and what he did everything in his power to sound the way he wanted it to sound.

Mastering, although attempting to play to the going trends, such as high compression, never the less, is still done at the studio, with their system and their idea of what it should sound like, and you will often find that mastering studios are not living rooms, and they have one or two sets of speakers of their choice, hardly a sampling of all the different speakers or rooms where we actually play their "best guess".
 
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RayDunzl

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Yes, what he heard is what he intended and is what you got.

How can you assume what got shipped was what was intended?

I see it more as what was settled for.

"I get $300 for this, I've worked on it for five hours, I'm done. Ship it."
 

tomelex

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How can you assume what got shipped was what was intended?

I see it more as what was settled for.

"I get $300 for this, I've worked on it for five hours, I'm done. Ship it."


Either way, its what we get though, as I said, their best guess!

There were a lot of presets for different instruments, the mix and master process could take hours and hours but like anything else, the better you are the faster you are. Usually, they did the final touch up the next day, and usually they did very little to it the next day. Drums take a lot of manipulation from the raw mike feed to get right, even though they had a good idea of where to physically pre position the mics.

There is some video of Michael Jackson thriller album and how hard they worked to get that right, that took days to do, so it was what they intended. Bigger money does buy more studio time, and should (I say should) get better results. Still, you get what they intended you to get on the thriller album, which does sound pretty good IMO.
 
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tomelex

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So, are we able to measure everything, are we able to guarantee accuracy?

Why ask me this about measurement, try to remember this Frank, TOMELEX knows that we can measure everything to do with an audio electronics signal, everything. We can guarantee accuracy within the confines of our electronic test gear of an electronic signal, and we can measure the air wiggles out of the speaker, at a spot we choose, and compare to the electrical voltage signal that generated it. We can guarantee a certain deviation from accuracy to the signal, we have been doing it since we first looked at a signal with test equipment. Really, Frank, the onus is on you to describe what part of an electrical plain old simple boring audio signal we can not measure in the audible range of human hearing, until you have that, lets not say that there are a million billion saturations of the color orange while ignoring that our vision sensory apparatus can only see or discriminate some slight amount out of that total. This is the science site.
 

RayDunzl

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Still, you get what they intended you to get on the thriller album, which does sound pretty good IMO.

You get what they shipped, we can't ask Mike if it was what was what he intended, but I'll agree it is a good listen, and he probably signed off on it as being "good enough".

I think I'll put it on now, and take a look at it on the RTA. DRC'd Room (single mic L/R sum), Left and Right raw from CD player.

upload_2017-1-29_20-43-16.png
 
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watchnerd

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Why ask me this about measurement, try to remember this Frank, TOMELEX knows that we can measure everything to do with an audio electronics signal, everything. We can guarantee accuracy within the confines of our electronic test gear of an electronic signal, and we can measure the air wiggles out of the speaker, at a spot we choose, and compare to the electrical voltage signal that generated it. We can guarantee a certain deviation from accuracy to the signal, we have been doing it since we first looked at a signal with test equipment. Really, Frank, the onus is on you to describe what part of an electrical plain old simple boring audio signal we can not measure in the audible range of human hearing, until you have that, lets not say that there are a million billion saturations of the color orange while ignoring that our vision sensory apparatus can only see or discriminate some slight amount out of that total. This is the science site.

I always find arguments about "what is left to be measured that we don't already know" to be indicative of a mature technology.

Let's be a bit futurist for a moment:

Recorded playback of music at home is a mature technology, 100 years old now. Most of the fundamental theories used by current technologies are 50+ years old.

Do we really think we're going to get to 'the next level' by re-arranging the deck chairs of the ship we're currently on, where we're constrained by transducer imperfections at both ends of the chain?

I say no -- we'll either get a few more incremental improvements (VR/AR) and audio will be declared "good enough", or we'll really break barriers within the next 50 years by going straight to neural implants.
 

tomelex

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You get what they shipped, we can't ask Mike if it was what was what he intended, but I'll agree it is a good listen, and he probably signed off on it as being "good enough".

I think I'll put it on now, and take a look at it on the RTA. DRC'd Room (single mic L/R sum), Left and Right raw from CD player.

View attachment 5348


You run a pretty tight accurate set up there my man.
 

RayDunzl

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You run a pretty tight accurate set up there my man.

Yes, but it's not preferred.

Speakers rated "worst" by both trained and untrained listeners.

Equalization to "flat" which no one likes.

Digital "room correction" which utterly destroys the precious recorded signal.

Correction using a single measurement which must ruin the sound elsewhere in the room (it doesn't).

Cheap-ass subs stacked next to the mains and not spread around (haven't tried that yet, and I do have a phase anomaly at 40-50Hz, though it seems virtually inaudible)

Dipoles so there's egregious front wall comb filtering (I see a little at 220Hz above and some multiples during sweeps - could move the speakers and make sure the narrow dips don't hit notes, but haven't)

Panels which emit chaotic and self-interfering soundwaves.

Lack of preferred Smooth Wide Dispersion characteristics.

No fancy cables.

Balanced (cheap scrapwire) interconnects, DAC out, preamp, and differential amp output.

Balanced Power so I could be electrocuted (OMFG!) at any moment if I'm not wearing my lineman's gloves.

I still spin CDs.

And there's a TV plopped on the shrine right in the middle of all of it.

It's a freaking disaster here!

"Somebody hep me!" - James Brown



 

tomelex

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You are one funny dude! ROFL :D
 

RayDunzl

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Jinjuku

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I say no -- we'll either get a few more incremental improvements (VR/AR) and audio will be declared "good enough", or we'll really break barriers within the next 50 years by going straight to neural implants.

I would rather implant my ass in a seat at a live venue. Last night it was the Orchestra and the 2nd half was Shostakovich's "The Year 1905" and it's the best the Orchestra has sounded in the last 5 seasons I've been a ticket holder. The performance was just explosive and made me hate my, by all accounts, highly resolving system today.

I'll be over it tomorrow. But last nights performance will never leave me. Not something I can easily say with any loudspeaker system I've ever heard.
 

tomelex

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where is that guy eating popcorn smile thingy at
 

RayDunzl

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RayDunzl

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fixed
 

fas42

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fas42

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Why ask me this about measurement, try to remember this Frank, TOMELEX knows that we can measure everything to do with an audio electronics signal, everything. We can guarantee accuracy within the confines of our electronic test gear of an electronic signal, and we can measure the air wiggles out of the speaker, at a spot we choose, and compare to the electrical voltage signal that generated it. We can guarantee a certain deviation from accuracy to the signal, we have been doing it since we first looked at a signal with test equipment. Really, Frank, the onus is on you to describe what part of an electrical plain old simple boring audio signal we can not measure in the audible range of human hearing, until you have that, lets not say that there are a million billion saturations of the color orange while ignoring that our vision sensory apparatus can only see or discriminate some slight amount out of that total. This is the science site.
Nope! :p I haven't tried to measure what I hear in the variations of sound that matter, subjectively - largely because I was always reading everything that came along over the years, and the Big Message that came through was that those who could hear these differences AND had good access to all the usual measuring gear, weren't able to point to some numbers that popped up on a screen, and say, Aha! There's the gremlin!! ... what hope did liddl ol' me have ...

It's "devil in the details" noise and interference artifacts which are the baddies - and science puts these in the "too hard, inconvenient truth basket" ...
 
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