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Dutch & Dutch 8C Kii THREE killer?

Thomas savage

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Don't get my wrong, I not attacking the D&D or Kii's, I'm sure they are amazing sounding speakers with the flexibly to help them work well in difficult situations.
But no one speaker can be all things to all people.
They are simply two small monitors making the best possible use of todays technologies to provide the best possible results within their limitations.
I'm sure you can change the perception of sound stage depth etc by moving them about just like regular speakers. Thought if I had a pair they would be put precisely where Keith's got them as the main advantage in my room would be great bass even close to the wall. Like keith says they are 'designed ' with the extra reinforcement of the back wall in mind ( I think :)) .

May well end up with a pair, see how I get on with the JBL 705p first.

I'm thinking of unloading all my kit, making my lounge 'sane' again and just having a pair of actives and live like a normal person :D
 
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Don't get my wrong, I not attacking the D&D or Kii's, I'm sure they are amazing sounding speakers with the flexibly to help them work well in difficult situations.
But no one speaker can be all things to all people.
They are simply two small monitors making the best possible use of todays technologies to provide the best possible results within their limitations.
They are indeed fairly compact although the 8Cs are large standmounts and weigh 32 kilos each.
They are both 'full-range' the Kii's in my room are flat at 20Hz , they both offer inf not unique unusual cardioid frequency response , so their measurements are exemplary
See plot that is just in room with no EQ , what else do you require from a loudspeaker?
Bear in mind they are complete systems within themselves, the 8Cs just need a source the Kii's really need their 'control' remote and source.
Keith
 

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Thomas savage

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They are indeed fairly compact although the 8Cs are large standmounts and weigh 32 kilos each.
They are both 'full-range' the Kii's in my room are flat at 20Hz , they both offer inf not unique unusual cardioid frequency response , so their measurements are exemplary
See plot that is just in room with no EQ , what else do you require from a loudspeaker?
Bear in mind they are complete systems within themselves, the 8Cs just need a source the Kii's really need their 'control' remote and source.
Keith
Which would you say is the most dynamic of the two?
 
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I am not sure I know what dynamic means , both are completely silent in operation so there is no noise whatsoever even when volume is turned up with no signal, bass is super clean extremely punchy , you can just hear/resolve more of the music, a SKY video engineer borrowed a pair he said that with his currentspeakers you thought of bass as a 'thing' which you were aware of, but with the Kii's the thing became clearly resolved as three separate instruments.
Keith
 

Thomas savage

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I am not sure I know what dynamic means , both are completely silent in operation so there is no noise whatsoever even when volume is turned up with no signal, bass is super clean extremely punchy , you can just hear/resolve more of the music, a SKY video engineer borrowed a pair he said that with his currentspeakers you thought of bass as a 'thing' which you were aware of, but with the Kii's the thing became clearly resolved as three separate instruments.
Keith
: of or relating to physical force or energy

Some speaker systems relate physical force / energy to a greater degree than others .
 

Sal1950

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I know audiophiles often discuss 'soundstage' but personally I am more interested in sound.
I don't spend near as much time nowadays in a stereo sweetspot focused mindset as I used to. I tend to do more of that kind of thing now with my 5.2 rig and enjoying a well mastered movie surround.
But it's been my experience over the years that if you want to create a soundstage with good depth you need some room behind the speakers. At AJ's speaker demo this weekend, both of dsp-active cardioid design, the benefits of which he discussed at length on Sat. Stealing a photo from Rays thread with the speakers positioned as pictured, the depth and width of the image was amazing near wall to wall and starting on a plane just behind the speakers and extending to the back wall. I find it hard to believe that this type of listening experience can be recreated in as excellent a manner with any speaker pushed against the back wall.
index.php
 
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: of or relating to physical force or energy

Some speaker systems relate physical force / energy to a greater degree than others .
Again I don't know about that, the Kii's have a wonderful step response /group delay they are the only speaker I am aware of that is phase coherent ( normal latency mode)
In my experience they just faithfully or more faithfully than other loudspeakers reproduce what is on the file.
You really need to hear them in direct comparison to your current loudspeakers, if we can get them into a listeners room and overcome traditional bias we more often than not sell a pair.
Keith
 

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I would be thinking that position relative to the rear wall is a 'bass thing' with normal speakers and that imaging would be more to do with the mid range and treble which is less affected by the rear wall. These speakers' USP is that they make the bass directional too, thus allowing them to be placed where you like - or so they say. I still haven't heard them yet - and of course the logic of audio science is that I wouldn't even be able to tell what they sounded like if I did :).
 

Thomas savage

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I would be thinking that position relative to the rear wall is a 'bass thing' with normal speakers and that imaging would be more to do with the mid range and treble which is less affected by the rear wall. These speakers' USP is that they make the bass directional too, thus allowing them to be placed where you like - or so they say. I still haven't heard them yet - and of course the logic of audio science is that I wouldn't even be able to tell what they sounded like if I did :).
All you really need to know is " I'm I buying these" , the rest is for the birds .
 
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I don't spend near as much time nowadays in a stereo sweetspot focused mindset as I used to. I tend to do more of that kind of thing now with my 5.2 rig and enjoying a well mastered movie surround.
But it's been my experience over the years that if you want to create a soundstage with good depth you need some room behind the speakers. At AJ's speaker demo this weekend, both of dsp-active cardioid design, the benefits of which he discussed at length on Sat. Stealing a photo from Rays thread with the speakers positioned as pictured, the depth and width of the image was amazing near wall to wall and starting on a plane just behind the speakers and extending to the back wall. I find it hard to believe that this type of listening experience can be recreated in as excellent a manner with any speaker pushed against the back wall.
index.php
I
I would be thinking that position relative to the rear wall is a 'bass thing' with normal speakers and that imaging would be more to do with the mid range and treble which is less affected by the rear wall. These speakers' USP is that they make the bass directional too, thus allowing them to be placed where you like - or so they say. I still haven't heard them yet - and of course the logic of audio science is that I wouldn't even be able to tell what they sounded like if I did :).
It is essential to hear every component in your own room, especially loudspeakers, at least you will then know how they compare to your current set-up.
Keith
 

Sal1950

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RayDunzl

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Is there a dealer near you

Kii US Dealers:

Kii Website shows only the U.S. Distributors:

HiFi Distributor:
GTT Audio Video - New Jersey

PRO Distributor:
Grace Design - 4689 Ute Highway - Lyons - Colorado

VintageKing and Legendary Pro Audio show them available online.

----

United States
Dutch & Dutch USA
P.O. Box 294
Cape Canaveral, FL 32920

---

It is essential to hear every component in your own room

I'd think listening to a strange system in a strange location can still give me enough to work with to decide whether I'd even want to try them in my own environment.
 
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The room plays such a large part, I remember going to audition ATCs in the early 90's , a completely tiled room, awful sound, I have heard them man times subsequently and have a pair of their active 50'shre and they are decent loudspeakers.
Keith
 
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Martijn sent some more information on the 8Cs and 'soundstage'

The 8c is a minimum-phase design, just like the Kii Three and the Grimm LS1. This is the best way to deal with phase.

'The depth in a soundstage to a large extent is messed up by early front-wall reflections. With conventional speakers you'll usually move the speakers far out into the room, to decrease the level of the reflections and increase their delay time relative to the direct sound. This tends to improve perceived depth and transparency. With a cardioid speaker hardly any sound travels to the front-wall, so the wall has no detrimental effect on perceived depth. An important aspect that is not taken into account, is that what we see to a large extent influences what we hear. If you see a wall right behind the speakers, you might be biased to hear less depth. '

He also mentions that an omnpole or dipole design uses the front wall to create an artificial sense of depth, not perhaps 'correct' but enjoyable.
Keith
 
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I have and there is a setting on the app for both free space in terms of distance from the rear wall and in terms of the space either side of the loudspeaker, they are good, perhaps the bass is crisper/punchier located close to the wall as the designer intended.
In terms of domestic HiFi it really makes sense to reclaim your room , speakers against the wall and no 'shrine' .
 

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Have you been able to decipher the major sonic differences between the 8C and Kii Three?
 
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They have far more in common than their differences, have you seen this?
 

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Cosmik

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They have far more in common than their differences
... which would be consistent with them both being 'correct'. Both speakers differ from each other, but they are designed to do the same thing without handing anything over to the complex, unquantifiable and *definitely* 'incorrect artefacts of bass reflex and passive crossovers. If there was a major difference, this would mean that there is still something about speakers that is not yet understood properly. But the fact they sound and measure the same, is suggestive of the idea that speakers have finally become boring and predictable - meaning that the music is finally being heard without the signature sounds of various "maverick" 'designers' that the industry seems to crave.
 

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Dear music lovers. I was able to haar the 8c this weekend at the X-Fi Show in Holland. I think a lot of women wil be happy with speakers that can be positioned close to the wall. However there was a problem with the low tones. That surprised me, because on paper is promissed 20Hz. The lowest tones I heard were fighting with each other. Maybe they reach 60-80Hz but that will be all. Was that because of the room acoustics? I don't know. Later should be a comparisson with a cello life, but the lowest tone of a cello is 63Hz.
The high and mid tones seemded rather good.
What would be the price about without the build in electronics?
Kind regards, Wil
 
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